I recently had a discussion on Mark Driscoll’s Facebook page. It was a nightmare of rabbit trails. I find that people who do not want to hear the truth cannot answer simple questions directly, and typically try to sound more educated than others so as to make their logic based on something so grand that the lay person could not possibly understand. I think it should rather be the goal of the one who supposes to educate to make his viewpoints as simple and concise as he can, that anyone who would take time to listen might understand, and also to protect the educator from making the same logical blunders that he desires to direct others away from.
That being said, I think I got a little carried away, and I am still learning. I don’t think I have it all together, I simply want to be close to God, and know the truth. So I ask tough questions, and I have done a little studying too. Here is the text of my Facebook conversation from yesterday and today. It starts with my name (Timothy Thomas) a little bit down the page.
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Report: Religious freedom declining for nearly 2.2 billion people http://ow.ly/5Zh9jHispanics abandoning organized religion, pollster says http://ow.ly/5ZhbcPolygamist Warren Jeffs Sentenced to Life in Prison http://ow.ly/5ZhdN
…See More
Wednesday at 2:35pm via HootSuite · Like ·-
20 people like this.
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Eben Arias-GarciaAlso note, many are leaving the USWednesday at 2:37pm · Like -
Justin Pottsthanks markWednesday at 2:38pm · Like -
Kym Condonso glad Warren Jeffs got life, phew!Wednesday at 2:38pm · Like · 3 people -
Ben RollandDon’t forget its across England! Worse in the north than south p.s awesome link!Wednesday at 2:54pm · Like -
Scott VorieHas mars hill thought about sending people to FLDS areas like Colorado city Arizona?Wednesday at 2:59pm · Like · 1 person -
Shawna Lorette TomesI work across the street from where the trial for Warren Jeffs took place. It’s been a media frenzy in small town Texas but we’re all glad that he got what was coming to him.Wednesday at 3:03pm · Like -
Danni CooperEngland is having an interesting time right now. Trouble is spreading and people are angry and scared. My husband and I have a fire extinguisher and a cricket bat by the front door! There are many issues behind the rioting involving many ages and races and social classes of people.Wednesday at 3:26pm · Like -
Ruben CarrilloI wonder how many Hispanics were questioned…Wednesday at 3:48pm · Like -
Ira Higgins”For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” -James 2:10Wednesday at 5:05pm · Like -
Mel Mariner another view point about what is going on in London http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/2011/08/10/a-glimpse-into-the-abysss-lawlessness-rising-in-london-and-beyond/Wednesday at 7:28pm · Like -
Lisa Deborah ByerA few buildings were burnt down in my town centre, my brother filmed the looting on his phone, he said it felt apocalyptic…evey1 I know from my town (Croydon) is in shock and r totally numb. Now 4 the big clean up…Wednesday at 7:34pm · Like -
Ace DmndI live in the most churched city per capita in the US, someone mentioned we were even in the Guiness Book for it. They problem I think you have to be careful w/ is the “politics” just let the Holy Spirit do all the work in the church. It makes for strong character.Wednesday at 10:41pm · Like -
Micheal SladeHopefully somebody in prison will introduce warren Jeffs to Christ so he can repent of his polygamist and paedafile ways and live to the glory of ChristThursday at 3:01am · Like -
Sarah WillisMel, That link suggests the London riots are a sign of “the end times” Didn’t we have riots in the 70′s and 80′s…..were they also signs of the end times? Didn’t ancient Rome experience similar lawlessness to these riots? As horrendous as the riots are I think it’s a bit mental to suggest they’re a sign of the end times, especially since we know that Christ will return “like a thief in the night.” The only thing they’re a sign of is that we are stupid sinful people who desperately need Jesus.Thursday at 9:12am · Like -
Timothy ThomasFolks, if you are rejoicing that Warren Jeffs is in prison for Polygamy, then you have condemned half of the righteous men of the bible. Do you wish they would have been put in prison? What about calling him a pedophile? Would you call Joseph, who married Mary when she was about 14 and he was likely in his late 20′s to 30′s a pedophile? In the bible, he is called a just man. Some will say that those were different times. Others will say that God overlooked their sin. Different times? Older yes, but people are the same. God overlooked their sin? Tell that to Sodom, Egypt, King Saul, Judas, the entire world of Noah’s day- to name a few. Warren Jeffs did wrong. He used his position to manipulate women, and made a mockery of the work of Christ by adding works to their salvation. He needs to repent not for the polygamy, but for rejecting Christ. I know what I’m saying does not sound mainstream, but oh well, when has that ever been important to God? I love God and I love people. I just believe that the church is causing injustice in the earth through some of our pagan Rome theology. Martin Luther started the reformation. It’s not over yet.Thursday at 10:15am · Unlike · 1 person -
Timothy ThomasTake my yoke upon you… My yoke is easy and my burden is light…and by the way, you will be hated for doing this, and as a side bonus you will have to carry a cross. See you in the resurrection.Thursday at 12:12pm · Unlike · 1 person
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Rex Kenley Tan@Timothy Thomas – Rom 13:1Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a TERROR to good conduct, but to BAD. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an AVENGER who carries out God’s WRATH on the wrongdoer.I praise God for the AVENGER. I rejoice that he delivers God’s WRATH on the wrongdoer.Thursday at 12:23pm · Like -
Timothy ThomasRex. Great scripture, poor application. I suppose that you would have agreed with Hitler as he used this verse to control people, because he did. Of course you wouldn’t. Neither do I agree with your application.Thursday at 1:44pm · Like
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Timothy Thomas @ Rex- a couple of other things: 1. Which wrongdoings? please name them. Perhaps I’ll rejoice
with you.
2. Nevermind, I won’t rejoice with you, not on this side of heaven, you viper. To do that, one must rejoice in his own destruction! Praise to Jesus Christ our Lord only, for my righteousness is as filthy rags! I praise him for any ounce of repentance I have.Thursday at 2:08pm · Like -
Daje R JamesBasically there are thee types of people: the sheep, the swine and the wolves. Warrens Jeff was a wolf. We don’t pet wolves. There’s no use arguing about this because Warrens Jeff was spiritually and physically harming these women and children. Even though we are all fallible man, we are not to protect, make room for, or coddle a wolf in fashion. Yes he needs Jesus, but until he accepts him as Lord he needs to be in jail. God’s will be done.Thursday at 2:41pm · Like -
Daje R JamesAnd also Timothy, culturally speaking, it was accepted in Biblical times to have more than one wife. But culture does not excuse sin. God did not design marriage in that way. But keep in mind that because it was cultural, the women they married were not purposefully scarred for the rest of their lives like the women and children involved with Warrens Jeff. And also, Joseph WAS NOT in anyway a pedophile. You are basically contributing to this widespread epidemic called “chronological snobbery.” Remember that in that time and culture girls were women at 12 and boys became men at 13. There was absolutely nothing wrong with that. The concept of adolescence has slowly developed overtime.Thursday at 2:50pm · Like
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Timothy Thomas@Dale- Those seem like very reasonable thoughts. But I ask what crime Jeffs should ber in prison for? I agree that he is a wolf. I stated my reasons. Why is he a wolf to you and why do you think he should be in prison? Clearly, Americans define adulthood as 18, and I would agree that this is minimal for a male. But what about a female? Why cannot people make this connection? People would call Joseph a pedophile for marrying Mary today! So, I am not trying to get Warren Jeffs released from prison, I am trying to point out the pagan/roman hypocrisy of so called Christianity! By your standards, our messiah was birthed through a woman who was married to a pedophile, whom our scriptures call a just man. Think.Thursday at 3:08pm · Like
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Victor CreedHispanics leaving religion??….maybe in America but right now the biggest Christian revival is taking place in Latin America and Africa….i do believe white people are the ones that are mostly leaving the faith…not Hispanics…Thursday at 3:11pm · Like -
Daje R JamesJeffs should be in prison because he committed a federal offense. Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s… this also means if you break “Caesar’s” law you pay the consequences. It is not and has never been culturally acceptable to abuse and rape women and children. I know that Jeffs is a wolf because this is exactly what he has done, and with pleasure. Joseph was not a pedophile. To say that he was is evidence of your lack of knowledge of history, culture, God, and His Word. Joseph and Mary were not American and it was the 1st century when this happened. You simply have to accept the differences of the times in order to wrap your mind around this concept. Also if Joseph, a man of God and a lowly carpenter, was such a pedophile, then why was he ashamed when he found that Mary was pregnant with Jesus, though he had done no wrong? Timothy I say this in love: study God’s word. Your questions about this whole ordeal could be answered if you exegetically studied God’s Word. Up until now your comments have seemed eisegetical and filled with skepticism.Thursday at 3:50pm · Like
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Timothy ThomasDale, you posted before I finished my last post, so you can disregard it. I guess I’ll look up chronological snobbery to find out about the newest terminology trend to avoid the truth at all costs. I can see why God made Isaiah go naked for three years to demonstrate what was coming. People are ever seeing, but never perceiving. Dense.Thursday at 3:56pm · Like
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Timothy Thomas Dale it seems that perhaps you may be the one more inclined to excuse sin through cultural distinctions, using the first century/21st century excuse as
your basis for righteousness. I suppose you only want to do what is right, so I do not fault you for that.Thursday at 4:15pm · Like -
Daje R JamesIn my first comment notice that I said “culture does not excuse sin.” Regardless, an understanding of the difference of cultures is crucial.Thursday at 4:29pm · Like
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Timothy ThomasAlso, just in case it was not clear before, I am NOT calling Joseph a pedophile. I am saying that you are!Thursday at 4:29pm · Like
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Timothy ThomasI Believe the scripture when it says that Joseph was a just man.Thursday at 4:31pm · Like
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Daje R JamesThat’s laughable.Thursday at 4:31pm · Like
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Timothy ThomasI Believe the scripture when it says that Joseph was a just man.Thursday at 4:31pm · Like
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Timothy ThomasHa! Not that you are a pedophile, but that you are calling Joseph a pedophile. I Believe the scripture when it says that Joseph was a just man.Thursday at 4:32pm · Like
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Daje R JamesWow. Never seen a knot twisted so finely.Thursday at 4:38pm · Like
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Timothy ThomasDale, you got me on the chronological snobbery thing. I had never heard of it before, but apparently it was a term used by CS Lewis. So I guess I look pretty dumb. But Dale, it is ironic that you are accusing me of using this false logic when it is in fact you who is applying it to you’re own argument! But I guess I’m just twisting things again.Thursday at 4:48pm · Like
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Victor Creed@Timothy…..its sad to see you find excuses for wicked men..Jeff is a heretic…which was punishable by death in the old testament.. Its sad to say but today’s church is producing weak, feminine males…and you are a prime example… the law is the law… and warren jeffs deserves jail… I am very happy he’s in jail… maybe that’s where he will repent of his sins… jesus christ was a man.. who created the whip… to toss the merchants out of the temple…He never defend a rapist..Thursday at 5:57pm · Like
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Timothy Thomas What the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth are you talking about? If Warren Jeffs was a rapist then put him in prison, or better yet, put him to death! I am not talking about that, you silly
head! I am just making the distinction between the bible standard for men and the false standard of American/pagan/roman Christianity. It is not that difficult to understand! Let me spell it out. Bible says one thing, world says another. Warren Jeffs bad man, but not for all the reasons world says. Christianity loves world. Christianity uses stupid excuses like “those people lived in a different time” so bible won’t look bad and Christians canThursday at 6:26pm · Like -
Timothy ThomasBe loved by world. I don’t care what world says, 18 is not a magic number. I believe bible because I am a man. Who’s the feminist?Thursday at 6:28pm · Like
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Timothy ThomasAnd one more thing- I bet 95 to 99% of the men in Mark Driscolls church, and even Mark Driscoll himself has thought about polygamy, and wondered about the bible take on it, but never had tge gonads you really question this worlds view. And you wonder why men act like women- because they are being told by everybody that they have to be one. The reason it was ok in the bible is the same reason it is today- men are the authority women are under authority. Women never could have more than one husband, but they could be with a married man. A mother has many children and loves them all equally but different, she is in authority. A man cannot serve Jesus Christ and Buddha, a woman cannot serve two husbands (oh that’s why Sarah called Abraham Lord!) “But things are different today” No, you feminist, they are not. Guess what, you don’t date look into this, much less speak of it, because your wife will get mad. She may even leave you. Grow up boys, and get some balls. My wife knows where I stand, and she is such a woman of God, that she stands with me!Thursday at 7:36pm · Like
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Rex Kenley Tan@Timothy ThomasIt would be BETTER for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. – Jesus Christ, Luke 17:2Is that APPLICABLE enough for you?
Here is the difference. You will only Praise God in His mercy. I praise God in whatever God so chooses to do.
And talk about miss application.
When a boy comes of age at 13-years-old he has become a “bar mitzvah” and is recognized by Jewish tradition as having the same rights as a full grown man. A boy who has become a Bar Mitzvah is now morally and ethically responsible for his decisions and actions.
Read that again age 13, FULL GROWN ADULT. So try to be logically consistent with your arguments. Your application of American law to Jewish culture to justify your stance is LAUGHABLE.
” The reason it was ok in the bible is the same reason it is today- men are the authority women are under authority.” – You
“Just because something is in the Bible DOES NOT MEAN GOD APPROVES IT.” – Mark Driscoll.
” but never had tge gonads you really question this worlds view.”
ROFLZ! LMAO! Would you like some barbecue sauce with your “foot”.http://theresurgence.com/2009/11/02/is-polygamy-biblical
On being a man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di9imh10Fc8Being a MAN in marriage
http://marshill.com/media/trial/marriage-and-menAs for your analogies, here is a hint. GOD is NOT human.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
So if a marriage represents Christ relationship with his church, what does polygamy infer? It infers that Christ has a relationship with “multiple” religions and that people can get to God by other religions. This is HERESY. Polygamy DID NOT sit well with God since Genesis.
Thursday at 9:36pm · Like · 1 person -
Daje R JamesThanks Rex. Very well said.Thursday at 9:54pm · Like
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Victor CreedWow you just destroyed your own testimony…your cussing wow…that is comfirmation of your spiritual state..satan always reveals himself soon or later..and yes you are a feminine male…because you justified a criminal…Thursday at 10:02pm · Like
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Timothy ThomasHaters. At this point I can see you arte incapable of logic. I will spend my efforts trying to get people to see how they are destroying themselves somewhere else. PS “cussing”makes me Satan. I hope you apply the same judgment to Mark Driscoll. He screams at his church men, “who the hell do you think you are?” Don’t believe me? Look it up on Youtube. You won’t judge me the same though, I know.Yesterday at 12:23am · Like
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Rex Kenley Tan@Timothy Thomas – Hypocrite! You call people vipers and we are the haters? Get the LOG out of your eye.Jesus called people thieves, white washed tombs, sons of vipers, wolves and goats. Before you go “that’s NOT cussing”, go ask a Jewish historian first before you eat your other foot. Don’t believe me read it up in the Bible.BTW, Since you claim to be a Christian, WE ARE TO JUDGE YOUR FRUITS.
1 Cor 5:12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges[b] those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” – Paul.
Luke 6:43 For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, – Jesus Christ.
Mark Driscoll – Obeyed God’s call and was used by God to turn Seattle from the “least churched” to one of the biggest mega church cities in the US. And so far did not say ANYTHING that contradicts scripture.
You – Good works? as far we know, a BIG FAT 0. Contradicts the Bible? Numerous.
Who are YOU to judge Driscoll? And guess what, you don’t have to worry about our judgement, be worried that God will use your own judgement AGAINST you.
Mat 7:2 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Why don’t you do yourself a favor and actually STUDY the Bible. I recommend a concordance and some commentaries to keep yourself from making “kooky” doctrines and “foot eating”.
17 hours ago · Like -
Timothy Thomas I know I said I was done, but I had to make this last comment: I assume that you are referring to my use of the word “balls”when
you say I am cussing and
destroying my own
testimony. But, actually I think you are referring to Rex using the term LMAO to mock me. In either case you have called both he and Mark Driscoll Satan, I on the other hand have not used any cuss words on this forum that I know of. @Daje, sorry I kept calling you Dale, it was an accident.
@ everyone, For the last time, I
am not defending Warren Jeffs. It just so happens that he is in the
news,
and I am trying to find out if
anyone else recognizes the fact that biblically we are being
hypocritical. Rex, you can
pretend that Joseph was 13 if
you want. As for consistency, I
say 18 is the minimum age for a
male, not to say that he shouldn’t be treated as a man when he is
younger, but because in order to
take care of his own wife and
children, he should be fully in
position mentally to do so. To
leave his father and mother and
cleave to his wife is a great
responsibility. At 13, a man is not even physically developed
enough to handle a full workload, and except for perhaps a few
cases strong enough to defend
himself against attackers. The
likelihood of Joseph being a
young teenager is slim.
Everything I have ever seen has
supposed Josephs age be be
around his mid 30′s, and this is a
typical marrying age for men of
that time, while Mary was at a
very normal marrying age for
that time, about 14. Here is an
article about it: http://
www.catholictradition.org/Joseph/
joseph27.htm
There are many other articles about it too. Don’t take my word for it. As I said before, Warren Jeffs is a bad man. He manipulated women by using his position of authority as a supposed “prophet” to get them to Marry him and have sex with him. I think that is wrong. I think he is deranged. But, most people just look at the ages of people and say “pedophile”, when biblically and historically that is not correct. They say it is evil to be polygamous, but that would come as a surprise to half of the men of the bible. You can twist bible verses all you want, but one flesh can happen between between a man and as many women as he is with. It is in the bible. I won’t tell you where, because you’ve probably read it, and never thought about, and my hope is that you will understand and look for yourselves. I really don’t believe I am going to change the minds of those of you I am having this discussion with, but I appreciate the opportunity you have given me to talk in front of others who will read this, and perhaps hear for themselves and research for themselves. Have a nice day, dammit.15 hours ago · Like -
Timothy ThomasI love how I keep getting accused of saying things I didn’t say. This conversation is going no where. And I am not judging Mark Driscoll, Victor is when he called me satan for cussing, before I cussed. He also called you satan, by calling me satan for cussing. Be angry with him.14 hours ago · Like
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Timothy ThomasIf viper is a cuss word then so be it. This is stupid. Say whatever you want, have the last word.14 hours ago · Like
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Rex Kenley Tan @Timothy Thomas -
1.) you can pretend that Joseph was 13 – Uh, I wasn’t talking about Joseph, I was talking about Mary.Mary was considered an ADULT since she was 14(as you so claimed) when she married Joseph. Joseph married a ADULT woman as DEFINED by Jewish (NOT Catholic, NOR American) customs. Warren raped children (under US Law). But Warren also raped a child who was 12 YEARS OLD! The victim is considered a child under BOTH US and Jewish laws.So your argument in trying to equate Joseph to Warren is NULL and VOID.And UNLIKE your thinking, Jewish boys are trained to be MEN and not “boys who can shave.”
2.) “but that would come as a surprise to half of the men of the bible.”
Name one who did not suffer by having sex outside God’s plan of one man and one woman. Surprised? Maybe, but that didn’t stop the SUFFERING.
3.) But, most people just look at the ages of people and say “pedophile”, when biblically and historically that is not correct.
Both Jews and Americans that 12 years old is a child.
He was extradited to Texas, where he was found guilty of sexual assault and aggravated sexual assault of children in connection with a raid of an FLDS owned and occupied West Texas ranch in 2008. [9] After the jury deliberated for less than 30 minutes, 55-year-old Jeffs was sentenced to life in prison plus twenty years and a $10,000 fine, to be served consecutively, for sexual assault of both -> 12 <- and 15-year-old girls.
Yeah I think pervert Jeff is a pedophile under both set of Laws and Customs.
*facepalm
12 hours ago · Like · 2 people
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